As a hip composer who’s often been musically taking down The Man, you could easily imagine composer Will Bates screaming “HOLD!” from his synth keyboard as he joins the social network legions of a cat-loving market upstart not determined to cash in on his GameStop stock just yet. Pulsing with a fun, in-your-face cutting-edge attitude that’s as much a Bates club performance as it is a movie score, “Dumb Money” piles on the pulsing, sampling, synth cash in a way that’s as uproariously energetic as it is serious about how the little people – aka the “dumb money” – will always get rammed in the end.
The son of two cult Hammer Horror stars, Bates made an ear-catching, counter-planet cinematic splash with the band Fall on Your Sword for the unique sci-fi and comedy rhythms of the Brit Marling writer-starrers “Another Earth” and “I, Origins” along with future Barbie superstar Greta Gerwig on “Lola Versus.” He’d also begin a documentary collaboration with Alex Gibney to capture the headspaces of Julian Assange with “We Steal Secrets,” Scientology in “Going Clear,” Steve Jobs for “The Man in the Machine” and Theranos convict Elizabeth Holmes with “The Inventor.” Bates first took on the skewed financial system for an episode of Netflix’s “Dirty Money,” all the while showing how unique his ever-transforming sound was for the genre with a rebooted Frankenstein in “Depraved” and the genre shows “Charmed,” “Nightflyers” and the Anne Rice Universe of the “Mayfair Witches” to add to his prolific credits.
Among the youth-appealing hats he wears with The Rinse and The Evil Cowards and supervising Fall On Your Sword’s transformation into a production facility, “Dumb Money” captures Will Bates’ cool, boundary-pushing grooves like his work for this well-received middle finger to The System, courtesy of “I, Tonya,” “Pamela & Tommy” and “Cruella” director Craig Gilespie, a filmmaker who knows how to take disrupt institution with a master sense of satire. Linking an epic cast of batting foul-mouthed characters with music that’s rhythmically alive with transgressive joy and the danger of losing it all, few projects that Bates’ sound has graced capture a transgressive, or more relevant spirit when it comes to pushing the rhythmic, alt. scoring edge.
Ralph Bates and Virginia Wethererell
First off, I’m a tremendous fan of your father Ralph Bates and mother Virginia Wethererell, who both starred in one of my favorite Hammer films “Dr. Jekyll and Sister Hyde.” Were the scores of their movies any inspiration in you becoming a composer?
Ha! I love that this is your first question! Honestly, I think I saw my parents being murdered onscreen before I knew who Han Solo was. Perhaps it made me understand very early on that it’s all just storytelling, and that there’s a lot that goes into making a movie. My godfather was Jimmy Sangster. He and my dad made a lot of movies together and they just seemed to always be having so much fun. That’s the big take away for me. But yes, I do remember the scores to all of them. I can hum the cue when my dad is pushed down the well in “Lust for a Vampire,” that fantastic theme from “Dr. Jekyll and Sister Hyde” before he kills my mum (ha!), and the various times he died falling off a roof. But it was the morning when I sang the entire score of “Star Wars” at my parents when they realized maybe they should force some music lessons on me.
Fall on Your Sword
Tell us about developing your alt-electronic sound and how do you think your work with Fall on Your Sword evolved you as a composer?
I’ve always been a bit obsessed with synths and electronic scores. The scores to “Blade Runner,” “Chariots of Fire” and “A Clockwork Orange” were huge eye-opening moments for me. Understanding and collecting synths is something I started doing as a teenager. At that time, dance music was the obvious place to use them, so I started releasing house music in London on a couple small independent labels. Then after moving to New York, I had an Indie Rock band called The Rinse. The Rinse was more about the songs, and lots of guitars! Fall On Your Sword evolved from the ashes of that project and me wanting to go back to explore some of those earlier electronic sounds I was dabbling with back in London. I also developed an interest in cutting together found video footage and writing music to accompany them. It was the dawn of YouTube and viral videos. That became a great place for me to quickly put stuff out and get it to a big audience. And all of it has been useful as a composer. Writing songs, making funny videos, in the end to me it’s still about telling a story.
What was your musical pandemic experience like? And did it spur you onto other interests or activities? Did you ever play the stock market during it?
My pandemic was pretty up and down, like all of us! Looking back, I have a certain amount of fondness for the time I got to hang out with my family and no one else. But then I remember all that fear we had, worrying about relatives in far away places and not knowing how they’d fare. I was also quite fortunate as I had a video game I was scoring that helped me focus on a project, as well as a movie called “Edge of The World which kept stopping and starting post-production, and again, allowed me to focus on something creative. Once a week I would mask up and go on a walk up the hill with a neighborhood friend of mine, and I remember he was the first to tell me about the AMC thing and then the GameStop thing. And it was fascinating. However, I’ve never done any kind of investing. Always given me the fear honestly. Probably because of my old man. The one time he invested any money was the Friday before black Monday, 1987. He lost everything. Pretty typical really.
The real Keith Gill testifies
What did you think of the GameStop stock frenzy when it happened, and could you ever imagine you’d be scoring a movie about it?
It was hard to not be inspired by the idea of sticking it to the man! It felt that it may grow into something similar to The Occupy movement. And like a lot of people, I think I hoped that it wouldn’t fade as that did with little consequence to changing the financial system. And yes, it was so exciting to hear that Craig was making this movie particularly since the story is so current. I’ve been a fan of his for a while now, so being part of this was an absolute honor.
Director Craig Gillespie
Craig Gillespie has directed some great, neo-satirical projects about people caught in the social media spotlight like “I, Tonya” and “Pam & Tommy.” What was your collaboration like, and how do you think his viewpoint played into the score?
Craig is someone who has a really clear vision of what he wants, which when you’re dealing with something as abstract as score is, kind of everything. Melody was really important to him. I tend to write a lot of sketches when I first start on a project, just throwing ideas at the page. The first sketch I wrote was a response to Keith’s character, but I couldn’t really figure out where it would go in the movie. So, as I tend to do, I kept churning out ideas. When I presented my first sketches to him, he was into all the weird sounds and unusual textures. I think I was probably tap dancing a bit! One sketch had me strumming rubber bands on the electrical contacts of a Russian desktop synth, another I programmed midi triggers to play trap beats on my set of timpani. All of these were intriguing, but not the right tone for what Craig was looking for. Then I played him that very first sketch using a new instrument I’d found and Craig knew immediately that we had Roaring Kitty’s theme. Everything else fell into place after that.
Having scored a documentary about Scientology, what did you think of the groupthink aspects of Keith’s followers?
Something that Alex Gibney talks about in a lot of the movies we’ve worked on together is ‘noble cause corruption’. Whether it’s L Ron Hubbard, Julian Assange or even Elizabeth Holmes, they all start off trying to save the world and then get swept up in a kind of madness that stops them from ultimately being able to assess their own sense of morality. With Keith, that just didn’t seem to be the case. He really did “Hold” for the right reason. And I love that aspect of his story. And in the end, I think it was that authenticity that drove his followers. But with any movement on the internet there are good and bad sides to expressing that!
You’ve also scored any number of documentaries with subjects like Steve Jobs and Wikileaks who upset and evolve the system, which Keith in “Dumb Money” certainly does. Are you particularly drawn to movies about disruptors?
Working on stories with big characters certainly helps kickstart ideas. People who begin a movement for better or worse tend to come with a lot of interesting baggage! So yes, those stories are definitely inspiring places to live in creatively. But in the end, they’re all just that, good stories, and embarking on a musical journey as part of those stories is the best part of the job.
How did the film’s visual rhythms influence your approach?
The film was cut by the incredible Kirk Baxter with a very specific ebbing and flowing. He would build up the tension and then let it release, then build it back up again. We talked a lot about how the score needed to mirror that approach. The visual rhythms are very specific and deliberate. The rising tension and pace of the interconnected stories. Craig would sometimes refer to it as the waterfall, building up relentlessly and then inevitably pushing down and emptying out. Rhythm plays a huge part in creating those builds, I called on my old pal and frequent collaborator Spencer Cohen to provide some unusual percussion to those moments.
“Dumb Money” becomes quite suspenseful in seeing if Keith’s acolytes will “hold.” How did you want to play their combination of dread and excitement, let alone the shorters who quickly lose their sense of superiority?
Getting that tone right was something we had to keep experimenting with. Honestly, it’s a bit of a knife edge. Keeping the momentum without being relentless and distracting, keeping the tension and excitement without it feeling like a full-blown action movie and keeping the dread without it feeling like horror. Again, I think electronics can be so perfectly suited to that, being able to control the arc of a cycling phrase without it tipping too far. Sometimes it would be as simple as having a musical figure cycling with an unusual meter or rhythm that would generate that feeling of being off-balance, where there’s everything at risk. And then quite often Kirk’s editing would create an apex and then a crash like the air being sucked out of a room. Those moments are so fun to score
In that respect, what kind of nature do you think that scoring films taken from real events creates in the music?
Being able to match that authenticity is everything. And really, I think it’s all in the performances. Paul Dano in particular does an amazing job of bringing us into Keith’s world and understanding his ideals.
It’s almost impossible to think of “Dumb Money” as being scored with an orchestra, let alone any films from “Wall Street” to “Boiler Room” that have dealt with stocks and their bad players. Why do you think electronics work so well with this genre?
I think a lot of these stories require a certain amount of exposition that needs a building of tension. To understand the complex implications of a financial movement, it helps to pass the story around to different characters and contexts. I think electronics can really help to get there with that linear, building, driving pressure. Also, I’ve always loved balancing tech with acoustic instruments, blurring the lines between the two.
Did you want to create a musical distinction between the rich stock shorters and the “dumb money?”
I suggested to Craig the idea of incorporating horns and low brass, having always felt that the gritty sound of a coal miner’s brass band could evoke the struggles and triumphs of the working man. He said, “That’s probably just because you’re British, but try it.” I ended up playing all the brass and woodwinds myself. I’m a pretty good sax player, but not brilliant at brass! However, those imperfections felt good against the electronic palette that Craig was looking for. So that brass texture to me is the building pressure of the mass of people, the shorters.
There’s a sequence where we see how much money Keith and his family are making and it’s immediately contrasted with how much Gabe Plotkin is losing. Keith’s family’s melody on one instrument (a kind of sonar sounding patch on the Prophet Synth) that I thought was somehow more friendly and then played again for the Plotkins on a more refined and colder electric piano.
How did you want your score to play along with the hip-hop songs of “Dumb Money?”
Music supervisor Sue Jacobs did an amazing job of giving the source a specific feeling and point of view. Some of my sonic choices were inspired by the palette of the source. There are some trap beats and rhythmic elements incorporated in some of my cues. At one point I programmed midi triggers to play trap beats on my set of timpani. I like the idea that the score takes a certain amount of inspiration from the source music, but ultimately is serving a different purpose within the context of the story. But the sonic choices, the boldness of some of the sounds is certainly a choice that came directly from the source.
Given that “Dumb Money” is ostensibly about video games, did that have an influence on your approach?
I’m not sure I’ve ever thought of it that way, but yes perhaps. There’s a heightening almost slightly unreal sense of tension throughout the movie. That idea is mirrored well in the story, it’s just so unbelievable that this actually happened, and I think that it allowed a lot of those bigger moments of tension to be pushed further as they would be in a video game
What kind of gear went into “Dumb Money?” And how did you want to integrate instruments like the piano into it?
As I was getting into it, an old friend of mine in Australia alerted me of a rare synth he’d seen online and thought I should buy it. It’s called a Suiko ST10, an esoteric Japanese synth that has a cassette deck attached to it and was originally intended to be used as a Japanese poetry trainer. The keys are laid out in an unfamiliar microtonal scale. I wrote Kitty’s theme on that thing and then added some dulcimers on top in a few key moments. I also took the brass I recorded and stuck it in a granular synth (The Tasty Chips GR-1) so much of the mangled granular sounding stuff is actually the brass being mashed up. And once I found Kitty’s melody, I wanted it to be perfectly frail and wonky which my 120-year-old Sohmer upright is particularly good at. That’s the piano in the long cue at the end during the hearing.
“The Social Network” also figures into this, from how social media fuels the buy-ins to the film having the Winklevoss twins as producers. Do you see your score as paying tribute to the soundtrack that changed the Oscar game for innovative electronic music?
I think comparisons to “The Social Network” are inevitable. After all, putting arpeggiated synths underneath someone on social media is something that Reznor and Ross more or less invented! But I did have to be careful anytime the score evoked a sense of nostalgia, as synths can sometimes do. When the filters of those bubbling synths got too open Craig felt like it would start drifting too far into the 90s or a “rave in Ibiza”. But yes, I remember the night Reznor and Ross got their win and thinking that the landscape had now changed forever. Before then, interesting electronic scores were more of an arthouse thing, or occasionally heard on good TV. But they pushed the genre into the mainstream which has benefitted all of us.
Did you have a favorite character here, or one that you particularly identified with? And in that respect, do you want the young audience who took part in this, and who are seeing the film, to have a sense of outrage coming out of the film?
Gosh it’s hard to pick a favorite honestly. I think having so many comedy actors playing against type was a brilliant choice of Craig’s. There’s just amazing timing with so many of the performances. And the central characters, Dano Woodley and Ferrera are so well rounded and relatable. I just think it’s a great balance for an audience. At the premier at TIFF, I was reminded of the absurdity of where this story goes. The text in the epilogue caused a lot of gasps from the crowd. The simple fact that nothing changed, no one was charged, that there is such overwhelming evidence of a rigged system, and nothing has been done about it. On the contrary it’s being protected. So yes, there should be more awareness and outrage about that. But also the belief that something can be done to change it, if we all work together towards that end.
One of the meaningful reality-based series you scored was “The Looming Tower.” As we’ve just had the 22nd anniversary of 9/11, what was it like to contribute to that musical testimony?
I still think of that project as one of the more emotionally challenging ones I’ve done. I remember reading the entire season in one sitting, whilst staying at an airbnb in New York. The apartment had a piano and I sat in front of it sobbing like a baby and wrote O’Neil’s theme. I still can’t get that guy’s story out of my head. And I really felt the weight of responsibility to get the tone right. So much loss. It needed a gentle touch.
I enjoyed the first season of “Mayfair Witches.” What was it like to enter the Anne Rice universe that AMC is creating, and how did you want to create the sense of old school vs. modern witchcraft? And what can we expect from the second season?
Melody played a huge part on that one; planting the seed of a theme in 17th century Scotland and allowing it to grow into a new context in contemporary New Orleans. I had a lot of fun writing vocal melodies for my frequent collaborator Maiah Manser. I asked her to sing in reversed Gaelic quite a bit. Anthropomorphizing the Mayfair house using my Soma synths Ether, contrasting big lush string melodies with terrifying modular synths. As for season two, the strikes have slowed things down but watch this space!
Would you be happy if people were encouraged to play the stock market after seeing “Dumb Money?”
I think if people feel inspired to give it a crack then go for it. Me personally, I’m better off investing in another analogue synth.
What’s up ahead for you, and how do you see your particular style evolving? And where do you think the is the next institution that disruptors will strike at, and Hollywood will be sure to adopt?
I think we’ll be seeing more and more climate related protest. That’s a topic that weighs pretty heavily on us as a family. And hopefully some disruptors can help wake up a few institutions to the reality of what’s ahead for us all. But right now I’m finishing up a horror movie starring Sydney Sweeney called “Immaculate.” And soon I’ll be dipping my toe back into acting. My wife wrote a vampire movie last summer and has cast me, my mother and an old friend as its stars. We’re bringing my mum back to the business after a 50-year hiatus. Back to the world of horror. Seems we both have to finally accept that maybe it is the family business.
See “Dumb Money” in theaters, with Will Bates soundtrack on Milan Records HERE
Visit Will Bates’ website HERE
Special thanks to Alix Becq-Weinstein and Jana Davidoff at Rhapsody PR