Director Alexander Payne and composer Mark Orton
There’s a great theme that runs through filmmaker Alexander Payne’s work that finds curmudgeons bonding on the road, a voyage that takes at first-unlikeable male characters on trip that would give Odysseus pause, dropping them off at the end of California vineyards, rural America and now Boston preppie-college central just a bit wise and more likeable than when we first found them. For Mark Orton, it was the acoustically folksy music of the acclaimed indie-alt. group Tin Hat that caught Payne’s sight as he drove a bickering son and father from Montana to “Nebraska.” It certainly wasn’t Orton’s first time at this whimsical, poignant unplugged rodeo, as his music had fueled such eccentric projects as “The Good Girl,” “The Real Dirt on Farmer John,” “Sweet Land” and “The Loss of a Teardrop Diamond.” But it was the rich, gamboling blend of guitar, accordion, fiddle and piano for Payne’s film that further put him on radar in conjuring a modern west for the hapless with hearts of gold.
Orton has certainly travelled afar from that musical range since with the likes of “My Old Lady,” “Shut Up Anthony,” “The Reluctant Radical,” “The Last Shift” and “12 Mighty Orphans. Yet he’s always centered his scoring on character whether conjuring dead-end minimum wage workers of kids going for the big touchdown. But lucky for us that he’s back in Payne’s company again for both career bests with “The Holdovers,” a film and score that fits their eccentric-enabling talents to a tee. Set during the holiday break of an insufferable preppie training school in the Boston-adjacent winter hinterlands during 1970 Xmas break, the film also reunites Payne with curmudgeon par excellence Paul Giamatti as an insufferable English teacher who draws the short end of the stick to get stuck with a wiseass teen (Dominic Sessa) who’s made a career getting kicked off campus. Allied with a cook (Da’Vine Joy Randolph) who’s suffered her own loss, the trio sneak out for a road trip where ghosts from the past reveal whole different personas no one reckoned they had.
Definitely not in Nebraska anymore, Orton shows his period-centric chops in any number of styles, with soulful blues guitar and brass echoing Cat Stevens, intimate jazz bringing to mind a Charlie Brown Christmas and sardonic sleigh bells for Giamatti’s patented bug outs. While strumming chords and accordion bring to mind Orton’s Tin Hat, a boy’s chorus echoes a college-bound institution haunted by war-fallen graduates, while lyrical piano melody becomes the regret of a life hidden from in academia. As ironic as it is poignant, Orton’s “Holdovers” evokes sad sack smart people we’ll come to empathize with in an understated, emotionally impactful way. It’s a triumph of understated, literate dramedy in all respects with a fine sense of time, place and an ultimately quite moving heart, especially in Orton’s musical roads uniquely travelled, once again in particularly excellent company.
Tell me about your musical upbringing and what led you to composing?
I grew up in a musical family as my father was a conductor and a composer as well. I learned to play both guitar and piano when I was really young and began writing my own music when I was still in grade school – mostly songs and simple tunes. In high school I started writing more serious music in both jazz and classical idioms.
What do you remember about your own childhood in the 70’s?
I was born in 1968 so the 70s for me were my formative years. I have a brother 10 years my senior who had a real hand in exposing me to all manner of rock and popular music. He bought me my first records and brought me to all kinds of concerts. So on the one hand, I would go to see concerts my dad was giving – everything from Bach and Brahms to Ives and Stravinsky, but on the other hand my brother was taking me to see concerts at Madison Square Garden or to see Elton John in Central Park.
How do you think your music on such NPR “storytelling” radio shows as “All Things Considered” and “This American Life” contributed to your growth as a composer?
It’s an interesting question. I’ve done a variety of work for “All Things Considered,” from rearranging their theme song to audio postcards describing my pieces. With “This American Life” I have either contributed licensed music or written original music for them. In both cases I suppose I’d think of the work as the beginning of music functioning within a broader narrative – so maybe a good stepping stone into working in film.
Were you enthused straight off to score such rustic-set character dramas and documentaries like “The Real Dirt on Farmer John” and “Sweet Land?”
When I worked on these films I was not so focused on film scoring generally. I was still touring with my band Tin Hat Trio and working across various disciplines: writing music for modern dance, working on radio dramas, writing music for theater, and even the odd new music commission. I loved working on both of these films and didn’t feel limited by the sort of rural palette of the instrumentation since I had many other outlets. I suppose there was some thought about the idea of my being pigeonholed as the ‘banjo composer guy’ or something, but they were both helmed by directors who remain friends to this day. The experience of working on both films was really open and great.
What drew Alexander Payne to your music for “Nebraska?”
Alexander had temped in a combination of music from previous films of mine and from Tin Hat Trio’s recordings. By the time he reached out to me about the music, the score consisted of 23 pieces by me and one by my band mate Rob Burger, so our initial meeting was really based on a case of heavily ingrained temp love. Of course much of that music was then either improved or rearranged or replaced all together in the final version of “Nebraska.” I didn’t have an issue with this either since that’s kind of how I came into film anyway – from the side entrance of having my music licensed and then expanding on that music.
What did you think of Alexander Payne’s movies before meeting him, and did he fulfill your expectations?
I had always been a fan of his filmmaking so it’s been great to be able to work with him on both “Nebraska” and “The Holdovers.” He’s a great director to work with – very clear on his opinions but also open to my experimenting and experienced enough to understand the process and not knee-jerk react to what he calls “the shock of the new” when we’re in the demoing phase.
Talk about the experience of working on “Nebraska” for Alexander. How do you think it fit into your sound?
Early on Alexander described the sound he was looking for in “Nebraska” as “Italian cinema on the plains.” It was important to him that we not go after anything too overtly Americana. The fact that we had some signposts in the shape of a number of my pieces of music that were being used in the score meant we had established a sound for the film very much rooted in what I was already doing musically. He’s also very drawn to thematic writing (as am I) so that aligned with a lot of my previous work.
How did you and Alexander want to approach “The Holdovers?” with a sort of “unplugged” sound?
I wouldn’t say so much with an “unplugged sound” actually. In fact, this is one of the rare scores that has me plugging in an old Gibson Les Paul and fuzz box. We discussed the time period and the music that most resonated with him from that time. We mostly discussed music of the era rather than any films. I certainly felt that anything I did shouldn’t betray the early 70’s setting. All of that said, there remains a handmade quality which has as much to do with instrumentation choices as any broader aesthetic, but likely translates at times into what could be called an “unplugged” sound.
How did you want the thematically want to “melt the ice” between the characters, let alone show them as people we come to care about?
I use several main themes throughout the film but none are tied to any one character. I think of the themes as being tied to emotions each of the characters shares/experiences. I think the fact that they share these themes helps explore their commonality.
Which character were you the most sympathetic to here, and does that reflect in the score?
That’s a difficult question to answer. I’m not sure I’m drawn to any one character more than another. I love all three main characters, warts and all, and to me it’s so much more interesting composing music for characters as multi-dimensional as these. Maybe I’d choose the Mormon boy since I know what it feels like to lose a glove in a New England winter….
How did you want to capture an early 70’s rock vibe?
That side of things was easy for me since I grew up playing most of this music from this time. The most collectable instruments – like Gibson Les Pauls and fender amplifiers – are all from this era. I put together a band of folks who I knew would understand the sensibility. It’s not really putting on a hat Though since most of the organic sounds from that era are what I go after anyway.
Would you say that “The Holdovers” is a Christmas movie and score, particularly when you have accordions, trumpet and bells in it?
There are definite elements that underline the fact that this all takes place during the holidays. I did use sleighbells here and there and some celesta and other bells (block bells and chimes). I think most of those elements are used in the comedy cues though – the bulk of the score avoids that sound and goes for something more connected to the era the film is taking place in.
Do you think the more rustic guitar cues fit into the snowy landscape?
Yes. We had discussed things like the music of Cat Stevens and Jim Croce. I think my cues are connecting more to that tradition.
Talk about bringing a boy’s chorus into the score.
I was looking for a bit of drama there and had also been singing one of my main themes which is used in a number of different iterations throughout the film. I wanted something a bit dramatic for the helicopter scene. The boys choir to me also tied to the Christmas setting not to mention the old world classics professor.
How did you want the score to fit into the 60’s and 70’s song cuts?
Seamlessly. Or at least that’s the idea… There is a ton of source music in the film So I wanted what I was doing to blend with the songs.
How did you want to play the humor in “The Holdovers” without making it too wacky? And in contrast play the film’s more poignant passages without getting to syrupy?
This is always the dance I have to do in working with Alexander and his particular mix of drama and comedy. He’s also not drawn to music that leads the comedy or drama – he definitely prefers a lighter touch.
Would you say this score is the closest to the work you’ve done with your group Tin Hat?
There are a few moments in the score that remind me of Tin Hat, but at the core of Tin Hat’s music was both a degree of improvisation and a bit of dissonance beneath the surface. These aren’t things I get to explore in film as much honestly. Still, the handmade quality of the score brings it somewhat into that world.
Where would you like to go next with Alexander in terms of subject matter and scoring?
I’ll slightly cop-out on this question and say “wherever his muse takes him.” I have a great deal of trust in him as a director and love all his previous work – I’m excited to see where he heads next.
You’ve also got a really fun Netflix documentary miniseries about The American Gladiators called “Muscles & Mayhem” that’s on now as well. Were you a fan of the show, and what was it like capturing that big hair era for you?
I co-scored that series with composer John Hancock. We’ve been working together on and off for years – basically since we met as composer fellows at The Sundance Institute. Jared Hess (“Napoleon Dynamite,” “Nacho Libre”) directed and it was a blast to work on. I can’t pretend to be a giant fan of the show – more of a morbid curiosity or can’t look away situation. We did make sure that the music lined up with the costumes and 90’s vibe of the Gladiator’s production aesthetic. John has another life outside of film composing working in the EDM scene, so he definitely brings the synth chops and helps wrangle mine as they line up more with the Columbia Princeton labs than Pet Shop Boys!
When you look at “alt” composers now, where do you think your voice fits in?
Not trying to be an ass here, but I don’t look at “Alt” composers. I do this film work and it still remains part of my overall musical output. I’ve chosen to live in Portland despite what (certainly pre-pandemic) could be considered a kind of pay-cut. One of the reasons was to be able to live more cheaply than other places I’d lived – like NY and San Francisco – so I’d be able to take on more passion projects (i.e. unpaid work), but the other reason was to keep some distance from the LA or NY scene. I love working in film and plan on continuing to do so, but I’d never want it to be at the expense of the other music I’m making.
I mostly still listen to a combination of guilty pleasures (weird prog rock), vintage field recordings and a lot of avant- grade music in both jazz and contemporary classical music. Alongside all the fantastic music my friends are making (like Todd Sickafoose’s “Bear Proof”). I still love the thorny stuff like Elliot Carter and Xenakis. I still comb eBay for Ligeti and Feldman conductor-scores. I’ve lately been working on recreating Bartok chorales using several tracks of ebows on my dobro. But of course I’m aware of other film composers and have heard some fantastic music from Johnny Greenwood and Nicholas Britell (to name a couple) in the last several years, and I will go back and occasionally listen to Gabriel Yared or Thomas Newman (two favorites) – but I do not consider myself an expert on what’s happening in the film composing world more broadly.
Apologies for what might feel a bit of a diatribe, but I haven’t spent time attempting to contextualize my film-composing voice amongst other composers. I imagine I’d come out on the organic handmade side – and that for more than 1⁄2 my work there would be some performative aspect that might differentiate me from others – or possibly some instrumentation choice. I’m likely one of the few composers that mixes everything analog and doesn’t use click tracks (my assistants have to click stuff for me after the fact). I imagine that might set me apart from many in terms of my work flow.
“The Holdovers” is the definition of a little movie that could, and hopefully Oscar consideration is up ahead for it. Why do you think people are affected by it?
I imagine that for some folks, it’s affecting them in the same way it does me. I find it so refreshing to watch characters who are not thinly drawn – who make bad decisions – who aren’t sanitized for the sake of a broader narrative. The imperfection for me feels very human. That’s all coupled with the fantastic writing/acting/directing – and made whole by a production aesthetic that feels the opposite of green screen. So there’s a degree of nostalgia running it through it I believe – for a different kind of film making and a different kind of story – that harkens back to a different time, and reminds us what we’ve been missing.
See “The Holdovers” in theaters with Mark Orton’s score available digitally HERE and on vinyl HERE. Visit Mark’s website HERE.
Special thanks to Sarah Roche and White Bear PR